Curse

HigherMinion · Jan 11, 2012, 06:17 PM // 18:17

*Thread updated 26/5/12*

Markway is a 7H build revolving around triggering Mark of Pain as much as possible. It has been through plenty of testing and changes.
Below is the construction based on ideas here. I tried the ER and didn't like it. ER on heroes sucks, really.
VERSION 4.0 Mesmers are back.

This was mainly tested for a necromancer primary, but an Elementalist with Glyph of Renewal can just as easily call, as the mob is intended to be greatly dented by the initial MoP.

Explanation of a few of the choices/team in general

For a quick rundown of the evolution of the MoP proccers , it goes something like this:

Paragon- poor damage, bad at training targets(support: OoV necro/MB/SoS)
Dual Shot rangers(same heroes as paragon)- strong damage but impossibly weak
Hundred Blades warriors- weak single-target even with Barbs
VoS dervish- Winrar (initially failed with flash enchantments, though)

The amount of sources this build has for AoE damage is immense. Aside from Mark of Pain, you have Splinter Weapon/Ancestors' Rage, Mistrust/Shatter Hex, Clumsiness/Wandering Eye, Icy Veins, Reap Impurities/Sand Shards/VoS and, finally, Binding Chains. And it can all be off-loaded nearly simultaneously, with synergy going off in all directions.

Skill explanations:
Most illusion bars feature Ineptitude. Here you are already covered with block from Reckless Haste and/or Displacement. The damage is negligible in comparison to the rest of the spike, too. Shared Burden serves several purposes: 1. damage negation from both spellcasters and mellee. 2. Fish/cover hex. 3. DMS on those foes who like to try and kite my training dervish. Fragility has a synergistic use also; With Withering Aura+Reap Impurities, each Reap triggers Fragility twice, for massive damage. Also acts as a cover hex.

IV Resto is standard now, since the update, with Withering Aura slapped on the dervs to feed Reap Impurities and prevent them from eating Cracked Armour/Daze. Sadly, the dervish AI still cannot cope with Flash Enchantments and will teardown VoS quite often, which is why there is no Twin Moon Sweep.

Usage

For much of PvE, you can c-space across and spam all your skills without micro, but for those special occasions when you spot a pre-balled mob, there are things you want to do to take maximum effect of the FoWSC-like spike.

1.On both dervs, cast VoS and Sand Shards to make sure they're fresh for the fight.
2. Micro Splinter on both dervish.
3.Select a foe, lock both dervs to it whilst calling MoP, microing both Death's Charge and Panic. note, you may also wish to precast your spirits, but it shouldn't be necessary with Panic landing 90% of the mob.
4.????
5.Profit

If done correctly, the mob won't be a mob, it will be loot.
You can also pull with your bow

It's slightly glass-cannon, but the effect if you can lure properly is amazing.

Comment/criticise. Credit to Moloch Vein for introducing me to MoP, /Chthon/Jeydra for helping make the build more offensive and random tweaks. Credit to the guy who recommended 5 spirits on an ST bar (git)

Build on PvX (needs editing): http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:Team_-_7_Hero_Markway

Coast · Jan 11, 2012, 06:31 PM // 18:31

maybe change elite to pod and take air of superiority? So u still get the recharges most of the time and have a nice enchantremoval.

Outerworld · Jan 11, 2012, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coast

maybe change elite to pod and take air of superiority? So u still get the recharges most of the time and have a nice enchantremoval.

AoS would only really be worth it in areas with huge mobs i.e. elite areas.

AndrewSX · Jan 11, 2012, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Tbh the ST bar looks terrible to me.

Let me explain: IF you want big number of offensive spirits, relying on comm ones too, kick shelther/displacement for something else. Binding chains (great snare)/dulled weapon (anti-melee) + Anguished Was Lingwah, or AoU, or w/e.
-If you do this, you'll need to fis prots somewhere, maybe in place of command shouts on eles.
IF you want protection (and in your team those 2 spirits are the only source of prot) take away the 3 offensive comm spirits.
-If you do this, you could have to try to squeeze more dmg from other heroes.

Taking both is just a BAD idea imo. You will have you prots falling in CD at second cast, and cause ST has max 3 charges at least 2 of those spirits will fall in CD even with micro pre-casting, unless using ST 2 times.

(I've read what you say on the ST hero, but it just doesn't work for me).

Xsiriss · Jan 11, 2012, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Problem with Physways is that they can never really be reliant on physical damage. You only ever have 2/3 physical members, that's just how the meta. I second the idea that the ST rit isn't too useful. You'd probably be better off with a Panic mesmer or as a rit going channeling again for more splinter wep, spirit rift and A-rage spam with something like empathic removal or clamour of souls as the elite.

FoxBat · Jan 11, 2012, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Instead of questionable recharges on water ele why not a paragon with same utility for more MoP triggers? Or else another channeler r/p for 2nd splinter weapon (assuming your dervs can remove 1 copy fast enough) Ebon Vanguard seems almost essential, albeit you are probably using it already.

Soryuju · Jan 11, 2012, 10:48 PM // 22:48

I agree that the ST bar seems a bit strange. Do you have to micro it at all? I personally wouldn't trust the hero to prioritize ST's charges for Shelter and Displacement at the start of battle. The vast majority of your defense goes down for 45 seconds if they don't, and since you don't have minions to soak damage or other forms of prot, it seems like your team would be facing lots of pressure. How do you handle this?

Speaking of minions, it's kind of a shame that you aren't able to fit them into the build. I get that with the Dervs you want Shelter instead of Prot Spirit to protect against enchantment removal, and the ST Rit has some negative synergy with a minion bomber, but minions would take pressure off of the Dervs while giving MoP and Barbs lots of opportunities to proc. Have you experimented with running minions and the ST Rit with Shelter as the only spirit? This would keep ST's charges from burning out too quickly while still providing team-wide protection. I've run setups like this before without issue, and found that Shelter stays up quite well even without micro. You could replace one of the Eles with the MB and run the Command shouts on it instead of the traditional prot spells, since prot will already be covered by the ST. As a bonus, the ST Rit would have quite a bit of room for utility skills. Death Nova/Putrid Bile on the MB and the MoP/Barbs procs from minions would compensate for damage lost from the Ele skills and Communing spirits.

Odds are you've considered this stuff before, since you seem to have quite a bit of experience running the build, and have your reasons for putting it together the way you do. Either way, hope this was helpful!

AtomicMew · Jan 11, 2012, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Nowadays, simply posting a build is not enough, with everything and anything being possible in general PvE. I'm not saying your build is not good, but most people simply do have the proper intuition to make a judgement just by looking at skill bars. (And unfortunately, many that think they have it, actually do not.) That includes myself: the heroway build-space is far too vast and flat to easily find optima.

If you want people to be able to give you proper criticism, post an exceptional accomplishments your build is capable of that other builds would struggle with. It could even be something simple such as completing an area or dungeon significantly faster than more standard caster-ways.

As an example: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...t10482198.html

Xenomortis · Jan 11, 2012, 11:39 PM // 23:39

I'll say what I've said before when you asked me about it:

I don't like the Ele builds, Thunderclap looks very underwhelming and the Water bar looks almost token. Their damage isn't great and the utility is limited; Weakness, Cracked Armour and a single, limited, snare. They serve as platforms for Fall Back I guess, but I'm sure you could do better.
Giving it some thought, I would think at least one of them could be replaced by a Mesmer; either ESurge or Panic, although getting Fall Back to work on a Mes is not so easy.

Oh, and you're running Derv heroes. But whatever, I guess that's the point.

I need to see something like this in action before I comment further; I have further suspicions, but they're only that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coast

maybe change elite to pod and take air of superiority? So u still get the recharges most of the time and have a nice enchantremoval.

AP plays so well with the Norn shouts and EVAS (and I don't know why Finish Him, YMLAD and EVAS aren't on the N/A bar by default). AoS just doesn't compare; in fact it doesn't really function as a method of reducing skill recharges at all.
Pain of Disenchantment might sometimes be nice, but then Rend Enchantments could easily be shoved onto the N/Rt hero, or perhaps it could be changed to a Ravenous Gaze-Restoration hybrid with Strip Enchantment, although you would necessarily lose some healing power.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewSX

Tbh the ST bar looks terrible to me.

Let me explain: IF you want big number of offensive spirits, relying on comm ones too, kick shelther/displacement for something else. Binding chains (great snare)/dulled weapon (anti-melee) + Anguished Was Lingwah, or AoU, or w/e.
-If you do this, you'll need to fis prots somewhere, maybe in place of command shouts on eles.
IF you want protection (and in your team those 2 spirits are the only source of prot) take away the 3 offensive comm spirits.
-If you do this, you could have to try to squeeze more dmg from other heroes.

Taking both is just a BAD idea imo. You will have you prots falling in CD at second cast, and cause ST has max 3 charges at least 2 of those spirits will fall in CD even with micro pre-casting, unless using ST 2 times.

(I've read what you say on the ST hero, but it just doesn't work for me).

Binding Chains is crap, it's expensive, very short lived and has few redeeming values. Dulled Weapon is unnecessary.
As for the offensive spirits using up ST charges, it doesn't happen as often and when it does, you tend not to notice if you're doing things right. I use that bar with minions and I don't really notice anything. Since everything not spirit related in communing is crap, the attack spirits are a natural choice.
Whilst I'm not happy with the ST rit being the only form of damage capping, that exact bar should function enough. If you want more offense though, the a SoGM offensive bar is a natural choice, but PS would have to be slotted in somewhere and I'm not sure where you could comfortably place it.

Kunder · Jan 11, 2012, 11:57 PM // 23:57

Player Build : Bring Ebon Vanguard Assassin because it deals like 200-250 damage per cast and triggers MoP as well. Finish Him + either EBSoH/EBSoW/YMLAD should round out your other PvE skills. EBSoH probably being the most worthwhile in these types of builds (though if you remove the casters benefiting from it that will change).

Technobabble is an OK skill, but its always better to kill than disable and EVAS + FH + (possibly) YMLAD gets kills as fast as you can spam the skills. Those three can deal about ~450-500 damage just on their own. If you really want it you can keep it in along with EVAS + FH though, but I think you will realize you don't need it.

SoS rit looks fine. I shy away from Painful Bond myself because of energy issues but that's just my opinion.

Definitely agree with prior comments on the ST rit. Dump all but 1 or 2 spirits (Shelter + another of your choice). Improve restoration or channeling and get the power skills on those. More Mend Body and Soul + Spirit Light, or another copy of Splinter Weapon is absolutely invaluable.

IV Necro: Look, just run minions. Minions = infinite MoP abuse. IV itself really isn't that great, switch for AotL or OoU. If you want a better skill than IV to deal damage, take Deathly Swarm. This is also a nice platform to throw your Fall Back! on, along with Stand Your Ground as a good secondary damage mitigation.

Thunderclap is good for cracked armor, but you already have cracked armor from your Dervs, so Thunderclap ele is now a 50 damage adjacent spell, or in other words horrifically bad (especially for an elite). Rest of the bar doesn't make it any better, ele normal skills are generally poor. Probably best to switch out for a Mesmer, N/Rt w/ channeling or restoration, etc.

Water ele I'm on the fence about. How much do you really use the snares? I've never felt a need for it when running MoP, things die so fast it doesn't matter. Outside of snares the build doesn't do much, Shatterstone is nice but doesn't make up for ele normal skills being poor. Another good candidate to switch for another class.

Dervs look good. I have almost the exact same builds in fact when I run derv heroes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtomicMew

Nowadays, simply posting a build is not enough, with everything and anything being possible in general PvE. I'm not saying your build is not good, but most people simply do have the proper intuition to make a judgement just by looking at skill bars. (And unfortunately, many that think they have it, actually do not.) That includes myself: the heroway build-space is far too vast and flat to easily find optima.

If you want people to be able to give you proper criticism, post an exceptional accomplishments your build is capable of that other builds would struggle with. It could even be something simple such as completing an area or dungeon significantly faster than more standard caster-ways.

You expect him to set record breaking times with his build and THEN come and ask for criticism? Thats kind of the backwards way things work.

HigherMinion · Jan 11, 2012, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Yes. I am sure I could replace the air or water elementalist with the mesmers. The difference is the extra attribute points. The cracked Armour from Thunderclap is not to be sniffed at. It gives the necro a spare slot (so not to take weaken armour).

To the people sayiing the ST is bad, I employ you all to mock Xeno at this time, as it was his idea. However, it does look much more useful than Binding Chains when I have a water elementalist with snares. It makes much more sense running more offensive spirits and make use of Painful Bond.

If I were to change one of the eles for a mesmer; which would it be and what kind of mesmer? (not including Panic. Because its shit ).

@Kunder; Look. MoP is being abused to the high heavens by my Dervs. They output so much AoE damage, it's insane. They apply AoE damage with their scythes normally, then Sand Shards is AoE per attack, Reap Impurities, Splinter Weapon AND MoP. There is no need for anymore AoE damage or minions. The Dervish bodyblock and pewpew

Kunder · Jan 12, 2012, 12:05 AM // 00:05

In groups with multiple melee characters I rather like Keystone Signet builds that go /mo for SoH. +20 damage per hit to two characters is quite nice, and Keystone Signet builds have fairly decent damage + a whole lot of interrupt spam. The excess energy they have also lets you do nifty things with other random stuff like Balthazar's Spirit or Retribution if you have the inclination.

Energy Surge is also a pretty decent fit. If you like to micro and like to cause havok with Deep Wound/Cracked Armor/Dazed/etc on every enemy at once, Fevered Dream builds are really nice.

AtomicMew · Jan 12, 2012, 01:34 AM // 01:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

You expect him to set record breaking times with his build and THEN come and ask for criticism? Thats kind of the backwards way things work.

No I don't expect record breaking times, I expect him to have proof of concept. I.e., show how this build works on high end PvE and then come back and asking for tweaks. Serious question: is that really too much to ask?

Until then, I think most people would look at this and be skeptical. More specifically, no one doubts that MoP can pump out huge DPS. But personally, I doubt the body-blocking and balling capabilities of hero melee and I doubt the conditionality of MoP (you may be able to recharge MoP with AP, but death's charge is still a 30s timer). I also doubt that this is more efficient than just taking a bunch of esurge mesmers and ele nukers. I'm pretty much in the same boat as Xeno when he said he would like to see it in action.

But at the end of the day, it's up to H-M whether he wants to throw his build into the forge and see if it comes out or if or if he just wants this thread to be a circle**** by physway fanboys. My suggestion is the former. Throw the build at a difficult area and post your results.

Venganza · Jan 12, 2012, 02:53 AM // 02:53

ST Bar looks aweful.

Anyway for proof of concept, do Gloom HM (no cons), that is what I do, and if your setup can't do it, make changes.

Kunder · Jan 12, 2012, 03:03 AM // 03:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Venganza

ST Bar looks aweful.

Anyway for proof of concept, do Gloom HM (no cons), that is what I do, and if your setup can't do it, make changes.

That's a silly proof of concept. Gloom is an anti-physical area, this is a physical build. You might as well tell E/Mos to "prove" their build against Mallyx.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtomicMew

No I don't expect record breaking times, I expect him to have proof of concept. I.e., show how this build works on high end PvE and then come back and asking for tweaks. Serious question: is that really too much to ask?

Until then, I think most people would look at this and be skeptical. More specifically, no one doubts that MoP can pump out huge DPS. But personally, I doubt the body-blocking and balling capabilities of hero melee and I doubt the conditionality of MoP (you may be able to recharge MoP with AP, but death's charge is still a 30s timer). I also doubt that this is more efficient than just taking a bunch of esurge mesmers and ele nukers. I'm pretty much in the same boat as Xeno when he said he would like to see it in action.

But at the end of the day, it's up to H-M whether he wants to throw his build into the forge and see if it comes out or if or if he just wants this thread to be a circle**** by physway fanboys. My suggestion is the former. Throw the build at a difficult area and post your results.

Anything + a decent AP build is among the fastest thing in the game. Thats pretty much unquestionable.

OP doesn't have to prove anything, he's not even making a claim that his specific build is the best shit in the world.

Daesu · Jan 12, 2012, 03:46 AM // 03:46

At first glance, it seems your build is weak against anti-melee hexes.

My suggestions:

1. Just forget the ST rit. An ER-protect fits your build better. Fit in some hex removers if you want and smiting skills like SoH if you prefer.

2. As much as you hate Panic mesmers, having one would help your team more than your eles.

3. What is a physway without orders?

4. If you want a snare, you can just use Aura of Thorns. You don't have to dedicate an entire character for it.

AtomicMew · Jan 12, 2012, 04:43 AM // 04:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

OP doesn't have to prove anything, he's not even making a claim that his specific build is the best shit in the world.

As far as claims, he claimed that he doesn't think a heroway revolving around MoP could be any better (implying that it's optimal, or at least very close to it). Regardless of whether MoP heroway is better than casterway, that is a claim.

I could tell you that I cleared DoA in 10 minutes. Without proof you wouldn't believe it though. He isn't making such an unbelievable claim of course, which is why I'm not asking for extraordinary proof.

You're right that he doesn't have to prove anything. I am asking him to. He can if he wants to of course, and I've laid out reasons why I think he should. But clearly, whether or not he does has nothing to do with what you think.

Chthon · Jan 12, 2012, 05:36 AM // 05:36

1. In case anyone was wondering, the idea of using dervs in a MoP build is not new. I'd been running it for months (although never quite perfected enough for me to post), Moloch put an unpublicized version on PvX who-knows-how-long-ago, and a bad version or two had been posted to the forums.

2. Obviously, putting elementalists into a MoP build is a new thing. My first instinct is that it strikes me as... well... wrong to leave out things like the Orders+SoH hero... BUT the more I think about it the more I wonder if this might not be the right way to go after this last balance.

3.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

I need to see something like this in action before I comment further; I have further suspicions, but they're only that.

I gave the version that I saw yesterday a quick test run through Thommis+Rand. It finished. It worked mostly as planned. It didn't wipe, and most of the hero deaths that did happen were the result of me deliberately pushing forward after a bad aggro to see what would happen.

4.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtomicMew

I also doubt that this is more efficient than just taking a bunch of esurge mesmers and ele nukers.

Ironically enough, I've been testing that sort of build too over the last couple days. The results have not been as good as one would hope. Piling a bunch of Mesmers/Searing Flames together works fantastically against weak mobs, but it does not go well against Slaver's double-healer mobs.

5. (A side note: About those Slaver's mobs, they might not have been good guinea pigs after all, since some of them got a lot harder with this update. At first I thought it was just that Searing Flames was not nearly as good as I was hoping for. But after trying it in some other zones, my conclusion is that certain mobs got some significant unintended buffs. This merits its own post, and hopefully I'll find time to give it one in the near future. For purposes of this thread, just keep in mind that "well, it does OK at Rand/Thom" means more now than it did a couple days ago.)

6.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtomicMew

But personally, I doubt the body-blocking and balling capabilities of hero melee and I doubt the conditionality of MoP (you may be able to recharge MoP with AP, but death's charge is still a 30s timer).

The melee AI is bad, but not that bad. Most of the problems can be avoided by watching the field and calling targets intelligently. We expect (good) monks to watch the field; why not (good) necros?

I was also skeptical of Death's Charge because of the awful recharge. After trying it, I'm not so skeptical. On at least a couple of occasions it allowed me to instakill entire mobs. I'm not sure if anything justifies a 1-shot skill with a 30 sec recharge, but if anything does, instakilling entire mobs would be it.

7.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewSX

Tbh the ST bar looks terrible to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Venganza

ST Bar looks aweful.

Yes, it does. The version I tested had hex removal in place of all the extra spirits (and a-rage on the SoS). I understand the idea of trying to add more damage, but this is just going to mess up the AI on ST.

(Do we really get to blame Xeno for that?

)

8.

Quote:

Anyway for proof of concept, do Gloom HM (no cons), that is what I do, and if your setup can't do it, make changes.

That's retarded for the reasons Kunder cites.

9. @ everyone who wants to add Panic:
Panic is ultimately a defensive build. It packs some offense, but there's no earthshaking DPS. It's far less than either of these eles. If Panic were going to fit, you'd either be trading down damage or aiming to replace the ST or one of the healers.

10. @ everyone who wants to add a minion user:
a. Replacing the Icy healer would leave very little barpush to fight back against pressure. I'd be worried about holding up in tough situations. (In easy situations, you can drop the ST entirely and put the minions in there.)

b. Also, if you do decide to bring minions, it had better be a Horror/Fiend bar, or you're going to burn out Shelter faster than the ST can replace it.

c. Can't really replace an ele with minions since minion damage is diffuse and hard to control. (Against hard mobs, concentrated damage has gotten a lot more important as a result of this update. More on that in a future post.)

11. No one seems to be noticing the nice combo between Shatterstone and Icy Veins.

12. The dervs had survivability issues sometimes. I ponder giving them something like Armor of Sanctity over Death's Charge for really nasty zones.

Daesu · Jan 12, 2012, 06:28 AM // 06:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

2. Obviously, putting elementalists into a MoP build is a new thing. My first instinct is that it strikes me as... well... wrong to leave out things like the Orders+SoH hero... BUT the more I think about it the more I wonder if this might not be the right way to go after this last balance.

You just have to convince us that the 2 eles would provide more damage than Orders+SoH for both dervs.

Quote:

7.

Yes, it does. The version I tested had hex removal in place of all the extra spirits (and a-rage on the SoS). I understand the idea of trying to add more damage, but this is just going to mess up the AI on ST.

(Do we really get to blame Xeno for that?

)

Yes, I also noticed that he needed hex removers, especially in certain areas. Xeno was using it with minions, which is different context.

I still think he should just ditch the ST rit. An ER protect skill bar should work better with the dervs.

Quote:

9. @ everyone who wants to add Panic:
Panic is ultimately a defensive build. It packs some offense, but there's no earthshaking DPS. It's far less than either of these eles. If Panic were going to fit, you'd either be trading down damage or aiming to replace the ST or one of the healers.

Quote:

12. The dervs had survivability issues sometimes. I ponder giving them something like Armor of Sanctity over Death's Charge for really nasty zones.

The dervs are susceptible to anti-melee hexes and AoE, which are what a defensive skill like Panic is best at preventing. I also assume that Panic would not be the only dom spell in the mesmer's bar and there would be adequate dom DPS skills as per normal.

Xenomortis · Jan 12, 2012, 11:03 AM // 11:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Yes, it does. The version I tested had hex removal in place of all the extra spirits (and a-rage on the SoS). I understand the idea of trying to add more damage, but this is just going to mess up the AI on ST.

(Do we really get to blame Xeno for that?

).

I made the suggestion before I'd seen the rest of the build and I'd made a couple of assumptions. Notably, I assumed he had minions and I know that ST bar plays out fine with minions.
To be honest, I can't see why it wouldn't work out fine without minions. Without minions I suppose you want more solid, reliable use out of your prots, but the spirits are going to be triggering on only your party.

Remember, you shouldn't need Shelter for that long; if this setup truly works, then by the time you've blown through your two copies of Shelter (and you always get at least two), you should be in a dominating position that's not likely to be reversed.

As for meaningful hex removal for the physicals; you almost certainly aren't getting with what you could put on the ST Rit instead.